We touched a nerve with some in this week’s ToutTable, asking
How do you deal with the league-mate known for beginning trade talks with a lowball offer?
Here do you stand? Let us know on Twitter or in the comments.
Scott Engel (RotoExperts, @scotteRotoEx): I usually reject a lowball offer instantly and then it really depends on if I am at all interested in any of the players offered at all. If I am I will explore a counter offer through a small time window and then move on if nothing happens in many cases. Many times I just hit reject and that is it
Brian Walton (CreativeSports2, @B_Walton): Assuming there might be a needs match, it depends on whether the low-ball owner has a track record of becoming reasonable later on. Most times, if it is not the case and I expect he/she will be hard to deal with, I quickly decline and move on. However, I do reply to all offers made directly (not league-wide broadcasts) and wish everyone else would extend me that same courtesy.
Doug Dennis (BaseballHQ, @dougdennis41): I don’t have leaguemates like that. (Wait, does that mean it is me?) Honestly, I am usually happy to take the lowball offer, try to see where I can make it a win/win and will counter if I can. If I can’t, I don’t waste their time, I just say we don’t have a match that I see. It strikes me that usually I *should* have a match with other owners because I am always unbalanced early in a season in redraft leagues. I don’t have to “win” a deal on value–I just need a way that it adds to my point total. I like when other owners are open to thinking about possibilities in various categories. And that starts to percolate at the end of May, early June, in re-draft leagues (in my experience). Conversely, in dynasty or keepers, the store is ALWAYS open.
Gene McCaffrey (Wise Guy Baseball, @WiseGuyGene): Depends on my mood. If I’m feeling fine I reply “You will have to do better than that.” If I’m cross I will counter with an even more absurd counter-offer and a “don’t waste my time” PS. Honestly though, such offers are rarer than they used to be.
Rick Wolf (Fantasy Alarm, @RickWolf1): Firm believer in counter offers. That is how trading works. If it is such a bad offer, it can usually tell you what player(s) from your team that the person is interested in. Then you can start the process of making the trade. Review both teams needs to find out if there is a fit and then make an offer that helps both teams. If you can include players that the person had in the first lowball offer, all the better. If the owner does not counter offer and just says no or reiterates the bad offer, I explain how that is NOT how trading works. It is Accept, Counter or Reject. A straight reject ends the negotiation. Done and done.
Rudy Gamble (Razzball, @RudyGamble): I am nicer than I used to be. As long as it is remotely acceptable, I look to see if there is a mutually beneficial trade, counter if there is, or reject with a benign message. If it is just an irredeemable offer, I tend to shame them via private message. It’s been a long time, though, since I went full ‘scorched earth’ public shaming – last time I recall was when someone offered me Mike Aviles straight up for Mike (not yet Giancarlo) Stanton. Why don’t you just come to my house, drink all my liquor and replace it with Zima while you are it?
Steve Gardner (USAToday Fantasy Sports, @SteveAGardner): I like Rudy’s answer so much I’m going to use that next time … instead of my standard, “Jake, you know I’m not going to agree to that!”
Phil Hertz (BaseballHQ, @prhz50): I try to explain the absurdity of the offer. If there’s nothing interesting in the offer, that’s the end. If something was tempting I try to come up with a counter that might be tempting (and explain why the other owner should be interested ).
Mike Podhorzer (Fangraphs, @MikePodhorzer): How does one define “lowball”? Every owner values players differently, which is why each of us ended up as the highest bidder on the players we acquired at the auction. One owner might consider your offer a lowball, while if you ask another owner his opinion, he might disagree, believing it to be fair. At the very least, the lowball offers tells you immediately which player your potential trade partner wants. Then work your magic from there to negotiate a more beneficial deal for your team.
Perry Van Hook (Mastersball): I think there are three ways to deal with the lowball offer (not counting a quick delete). 1) Make an equally ludicrous counter offer; 2) if there is a player you really want on his team that he didn’t offer, reply and say let’s get Manny Machado involved in this trade; 3) reply and tell them you have better offers for your player – it either gets a response worth dealing with or they go away.
Steve Gardner (USAToday Fantasy Sports, @SteveAGardner): After giving it some more thought, I try to counter most offers no matter how ridiculous. Or try to politely tell the other owner I’m not really interested in making a deal right now, assuming I don’t see a logical trade with the personnel we have.
Patrick Davitt (BaseballHQ, @patrickdavitt): When I was younger and got sent a lowball deal, I responded with a line like, “Hey, are you for frigging real?” But now those days are past, I’m not so sure I see; So I reply, and I ask why, the offer works for me. “Help me if you can,” that’s what I say; And “no, I don’t believe in Sonny Gray; Don’t want Royals, that includes Jon Jay; Oh won’t you please, please help me?” The effectiveness of this ploy depends a lot on the age of the guy who sent the offer.
Ray Flowers (Fantasy Guru Elite, @BaseballGuys): I’m constantly shocked at the trade offers I hear people pulled off in their leagues (and there are doozies presented to me as done deals all the time). I don’t get offended if I receive a poor first offer because you never know until you ask. If the offer isn’t to my liking I explain to the person what I’m looking for and then see if we can find a better fit for both of us. Personal example in Tout Wars this year – I presented an available player to an owner and was told, emphatically, that they had zero interest. Meanwhile, another owner came to me to make me an offer for the very same player. You never know who thinks what about which guy, and the only way to find out is to reach out and inquire. If people get offended, well, that’s on them. Besides, there’s little reason for anyone to make their best offer on first approach. That’s just not how negotiations work.
Mike Gianella (Baseball Prospectus, @MikeGianella): I almost never respond to lowball offers. I used to respond to every email but in my experience I’ve found that if someone’s starting point is so far away from my idea of “fair” a deal is never going to happen. I’m not even suggesting that the other fantasy player is operating in bad faith but rather if their idea of value on a player is so radically different than mine we’re never going to come to an accord in this specific instance.
Todd Zola (Mastersball, @toddzola): Real quick to answer Podz, sure, we all value players differently, but we also can recognize an offer designed to be one-sided. I guess it’s like the definition of porn, you know it when you see it. Like Doug, I’m a the point I don’t get these type of offers, but I know they’re out there — my niece sends me texts with some absurd trade offers she gets as well as e-mails and tweets from readers. Anyway, I’ve learned most lowball offers aren’t devious, but from someone that isn’t adept at negotiating. I read it as they want the player targeted in the deal but don’t know where to begin, so I’ll engage and if I can see a counter involving the player, I’ll send it, tilting it my way, at least in my view. More often that not, it’s accepted. If I determine the offer is of the devious variety, I’ll quickly respectfully decline, If they persist, I will ignore them.
Scott Swanay (FantasyBaseballSherpa, @fantasy_sherpa): I like Gene’s approach – if you offer me Ozzie Albies for Mike Trout, I’ll counter by offering Nick Markakis for Bryce Harper. Fortunately, it’s been awhile since I received an offer like that – the last one I can recall involved my being offered Mark Buehrle for Manny Machado, or something similar in an AL-only league.
Fred Zinkie (Years in Tout Wars: 8, @): If the lowball offer includes a player I would like to trade away or a player I would like to acquire, then I will likely make a counter offer or send an email with other ideas. Also, if the offer is accompanied by a short note that explains the owner’s rationale, then I will likely try to work with him. But I like won’t bother to get involved in trade talks if the offer is lopsided and no note is attached. As a related aside, league providers that don’t allow you to send comments with your trade rejections are the worst. I hate having to reject a trade on the league site and then send a separate email to explain my thoughts. And yes, I know that these feelings mean that I’m getting old and grouchy!
Larry Schechter (Winning Fantasy Baseball, @LarrySchechter): I’ve come to realize that many times an offer seems really bad, it may just be an honest difference of opinion. Besides a difference of statistical expectations, value formulas can vary greatly. This year, in fact, I got an offer that I thought was ridiculous. I made a sarcastic comment in reply, and my leaguemate then explained to me that h e honestly had his guys valued much higher than I did. Although it seemed absurd to me, it was just an honest difference of opinion.
Andy Behrens (Yahoo! Fantasy Sports, @andybehrens): I’m so glad we’re finally having a public conversation about Chris Liss. But he’s been peddling trash for so long across so many fantasy leagues that we can’t reasonably expect him to change. It’s clear at this point that Liss is not capable of feeling shame. Still, I’m glad we’ve raised a question that is obviously about him. It’s best to simply mute or block Liss on all social platforms and send his emails to spam. As for other owners who send lowball trade offers, I tend to simply reject without countering if I think we’re starting from a place that can’t easily lead to a balanced deal. I don’t feel the need to lecture anyone about unfair proposals, because there’s almost no benefit to doing so. I find it’s often best to open trade discussions with an email that mentions a few pieces I’m willing to deal and the categories I’m looking to address. If you can take a minute to identify a potential trade partner’s actual needs, that never hurts. Moving from a general discussion to a specific proposal tends to be a successful path.
Lenny Melnick (LennyMelnickFantasySports, @LennyMelnick): Simple… Just ask the trade partner ,”how does this help me?” The answers are usually as amusing as the offer itself
Jeff Erickson (Rotowire, @Jeff_Erickson): As always, it depends on who is making that offer. If it’s an offer from someone less experienced, I’ll be more patient with it. But if it’s in an industry league, I’ll just argue with my co-host on air about why it’s a crap offer and why he doesn’t deserve a counter-offer. Actually, Liss and I ultimately end up doing a lot of trades. Usually, though, I’m in the “an offer is a gift” crowd, and I like to reward the person that put themselves out there to make the offer. That’s way better than the leaguemate that initiates trade talks with me by saying “I’m really interested in getting Gerrit Cole from you, take a look at my roster to see if there’s anything interesting …” and shifting the burden to you to make the offer. Don’t waste my time, basically. Whoever gave the lousy advice to “never make the first offer” deserves to spend an hour being slightly uncomfortable in an outer ring in the circles of heck.
Jeff Erickson (Rotowire, @Jeff_Erickson): Also to Lenny’s response, which was great, some of the worst offers I’ve gotten were in a Scoresheet league with the same owner repeatedly sending miserable offers that came along with three-to-four paragraphs explanations why the deal was so great for me. This was in a keeper format, and this owner always tried to win both the short-term and the long-term of the deal. They were the commishes of this league, too, and would manipulate the league rules to have certain quirks outside of the usual Scoresheet format, all which coincidentally benefitted them the most. Sometimes you have to put someone on the “do not trade with” list and move on.
D.J. Short (Rotoworld, @djshort): In those situations, I usually just reject without explanation or a counter-offer. I usually make a mental note for the future too. If I’m pressed on the offer I rejected, I try to be polite about it even if I find it ridiculous because we might legitimately match up down the road. In theory, anyway.
Scott Pianowski (Yahoo! Fantasy Sports, @Scott_Pianowski): Oh man. How much time do you have? I could write a book on this. Sometimes I’ll say something semi-serious but also snarky, like “would you tell one of your followers to do this deal you just offered me?” Most of the time I’ll just look for common ground. Maybe it’s the players involved who are gumming up the works; perhaps we just need to move off the wrong targets. Obviously it’s a game of opinions. Maybe I’ll ask the other guy to rank something on his roster, or in general. Maybe I’ll throw out something, ranks, an article, anything – that explains my point of view. Sometimes I’ll just vent offline to a friend. But above all else, if nothing else works, if you’re really at a standstill, here’s my best solution – get a co-owner who loves trading, loves the haggling, loves the process. I used to be this guy, and honestly, I’m not any more. I don’t like to have my time wasted. I don’t like needing 37 emails to figure out toppings on a pizza. But in my longtime keeper league, my main man HSG loves the trade game, so I’m the player-eval manager, and he’s the haggler. Works well for us.
Tim McCullough (Rotoexperts, @Tim_Rotoexperts): It really depends on who it’s from, and how well I know them. In Tout Wars, most of the offers I’ve received have been from people I know well, work with, and greatly respect. And the vast majority of the trade offers have been fairly balanced and worthwhile. But there is one person in particular (who shall remain nameless out of respect) who has repeatedly given me lowball offers. Typically, I will dismiss such offers outright and give my reason for doing so. I will also suggest a better deal that benefits both teams as a counteroffer. In addition to lowball offers, this league mate tends to overvalue certain players – usually someone they are trying to trade away. If I think his offer is so lowball that it devalues the game, I typically will send a more balanced trade offer, but I’ve also been known to send a ridiculous offer
Jeff Boggis (Fantasy Football Empire, @JeffBoggis): If you play with certain league managers for many season, not only do you pick up on their draft tendencies, but you also have a feel for their trade offers. For the league managers that have a tendency of low balling their initial trade offers, I simple decline the trade, but I leave the same standard message in the comments box which is “Don’t insult my intelligence”. That usually gets their attention and reduces any back and forth trade negotiations. I have more respect to people that make trade offers that are fair and helps both teams. It shows me that they at least took the time to look at my league roster to see where I could use some help in categories, while at the same time, not taking advantage of the trade.
Michael Rathburn (Rotowire, @FantasyRath): I usually reject it, but will try and follow up to see what exactly they are trying to do. I like it when an owner will reach out first and discuss before making an offer. Sometimes it is not needed or feasible. If you try to get their perspective on the trade and what they want, it does help.
